Dating, Anxiety, and Learning to Love Well

In this episode of The Gray Area Podcast, Roslyn sits down with Hannah and Dekkar Wagnon to have an honest conversation about dating, marriage, mental health, and personal growth.

Together, they discuss what they wish they had known before being in a relationship, why knowing your identity matters before entering a relationship, how to support someone struggling with anxiety or depression without trying to "fix" them, and the difference between healthy support and unhealthy dependence.

Whether you're single, dating, or simply trying to understand yourself better, this episode offers practical wisdom about communication, boundaries, emotional health, and building relationships that last.

Transcript

SPEAKER_02 0:00

Hey guys, welcome back to the Gray Area Podcast. I'm your host, Rosalind Gorham, and today I have two very special guests with us. It's Hannah and Decker Wagman. We're married. They're married. The first married couple on the podcast. Very, very fun. Um, how'd you guys meet? You want to start? Sure.

SPEAKER_01 0:22

Um, so we met when I was six years old, and Hannah was four or seven and five, something like that. Yeah, somewhere around. Um, our parents were both military, and when we got stationed in Alabama, we started going to the same church, and then my mom needed some babysitting. So um Hannah's mom actually volunteered to babysit us for my parents, and we've kind of just known each other ever since then.

SPEAKER_04 0:50

That's so fun. Yeah, except for high school. We didn't know each other in high school, we went to different churches, which thank the Lord.

SPEAKER_02 0:56

Yes, I don't think we would have gotten along in high school. That's hilarious. So, how did you guys like reconnect and be like, oh, maybe we should date?

SPEAKER_05 1:04

She was hot.

SPEAKER_04 1:06

Oh my gosh. No, I was I don't even know how to respond to that. Um, I think we both kind of had crushes on each other throughout, like in general when we were young. Um and then he kind of was the only, we grew up in a small town, so like he was like one of the only guys that wasn't like a brother to me or not my age significantly. So and we had things in common, like we were playing soccer together, and we both were on worship team, so like we spent time together in general.

SPEAKER_02 1:40

Yeah. So our friends beforehand. Like y'all like reconnected as friends, yeah. Yeah, how did you ask her out, or did she ask you out? I need to know.

SPEAKER_01 1:46

Um, it was kind of just informal. There was no um, no, I take it back. We went on a road trip up to Virginia uh to take her older sister back up to where her and her husband were stationed in Virginia. Um, and they invited me to go on that road trip. And for the first eight and a half hours of the trip, I rode with her dad.

SPEAKER_04 2:11

And I rode with my sister.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

She rode with her sister, and then I finally asked her dad after eight and a half hours in the car if I could date her, and he said yes. So then when we stopped at a rest stop, um, I switched cars finally, and he rode with her sister, and she rode with me the rest of the way, and I asked her out, and at first she said no. Oh, um, and then about 30 seconds later, she said, I'm kidding, because your dad told me to say no. And then uh ever since then, it's just been a fun ride.

SPEAKER_04 2:44

And context for that, I wasn't allowed to date till I turned 18, and this was three days after I turned 18. Wait, that's insane.

SPEAKER_01 2:51

We low key were like dating before.

SPEAKER_02 2:54

Oh, no. Oh, I hope your parents aren't listening, right? Yeah, no, wait, that's hilarious. Yes. So, what did you talk about when it was eight hours of just with her dad?

SPEAKER_01 3:08

Um, I really don't know. There was a lot of weather, a lot of traffic, and a lot of um tense awkwardness.

SPEAKER_02 3:18

That's hilarious.

SPEAKER_01 3:20

But it worked out in the end.

SPEAKER_02 3:22

That's so precious. And did you how long were we all dating before you proposed?

SPEAKER_01 3:28

We dated for a year and then we broke up. And then about three, four months later, we got back together.

SPEAKER_04 3:39

Um again, that's a I hope my parents aren't listening. Oh no. No, they know, they know.

SPEAKER_01 3:45

Um, and then what like six or seven months after we got back together? Less than that. Okay, less than that. I think it was like four to six months after we actually got back together, I proposed, and then six months after that we got married.

SPEAKER_02 4:00

Oh my goodness. That y'all were quick about it after you got back together.

SPEAKER_04 4:04

I feel like we dated longer than what you had said before. But yes. The point is, is yes, we we uh we had separated, then got back together, and he proposed pretty shortly, and then we got married shortly after that.

SPEAKER_02 4:16

So you were what 20 and 20? I was 21. Okay. Whoa, okay, so you guys were similar age to when my parents got married. Yeah. They were they're gonna kill me if I get this wrong, but I think it I think it was 19 and 20. Mm-hmm. Maybe it was 18 and 19. They were they were young. My parents were really young and had me when they were young. I think my mom was like 20 or 21. Um, yeah, that's crazy. Was that hard for anybody around you being like, oh, y'all are too young to get married? Okay, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 4:45

A lot of pushback. Yeah, do you think you were? Yes.

SPEAKER_01 4:48

Yeah, very much. 100%.

SPEAKER_02 4:49

Really? Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:50

Knowing what we know now and what we've been through, there was a lot of maturity that still had to happen.

SPEAKER_02 4:56

Interesting.

SPEAKER_04 4:58

Expand a little bit more on that. Well, I mean, we both were very young and had a lot of issues independently and then together, and it led to us separating after being married for a year and a half. Okay. And we needed we got back together about six months after we separated.

SPEAKER_01 5:16

Somewhere between six and nine months. Six and nine months, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 5:19

It's probably closer to nine months. Um, but like we had no life experience. Like we we didn't live on our own beforehand. I never went to college. Like, I did college remotely, so like I didn't have any sort of independence or understanding of the world or myself. And that was really difficult to try and navigate.

SPEAKER_02 5:40

Yeah. You said a little bit about um living on your own. Do you think that's something that's important to do before you get married?

SPEAKER_04 5:47

Yeah, I would say so. Yeah, I don't think it's absolutely necessary. Um, but I definitely think it's a challenge you have to overcome not having that experience and that independence, you know. Yeah. Um, it's not something that will end a relationship, but it definitely is something you have to navigate. Yeah. And you would need to navigate it if you had that opportunity to, you know, have independence and live on your own. Yeah. Yeah. Or even just going to college, like not being with your immediate family. Mm-hmm. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 6:18

Yeah. Yeah. Transitioning into adulthood from high school is hard in and of itself. And I think it's very valuable looking back to really take some time to figure out who you are, who you want to be, and make sure that you pursue somebody that is like-minded. Don't pursue somebody that's, you know, in relationships that's not because it causes a lot of conflict. But more than that, just figure out who you are and what you believe, what you align with, um, and your core values, and then go forward in life from there.

SPEAKER_02 6:55

Yeah, I feel like it's important to know yourself before you know what you want in somebody else. I was talking to someone who's like an older brother to me, and he was like, When are you moving out? And I was like, Bro, I'm not even 18 yet. I'm a senior. I graduate on Saturday. That's crazy. That's so exciting. That's crazy. Absolutely insane. But he was like, When are you moving out? And I was like, I don't know, I don't have a plan. Like, I live here, I don't plan on moving out. He's like, Well, how are you gonna know who you are apart from your parents? And I was like, I've never thought about that. And then I've been thinking a lot recently of like, okay, like, what decision would I make? Like, I mean, like with little things, like, what job would I want to take? What would I want to do? Not because like I don't care about what my parents have to say, but like, what do I want to do? Like, what actually do I have this desire to do? And I feel like that's been a big like learning curve for me is like, okay, like who do I want to be? Who am I apart from my parents? You know, so I feel like that's kind of what you're talking about, is like knowing who you are separately before. Yeah. That's so interesting. I've never thought of it that way.

SPEAKER_04 7:56

And like psychologically speaking, as children, you do have a lot of your identity, like just literally how you comprehend yourself and the world, a lot of your identity is in your parents or whoever takes care of you. Yeah. And it can be really easy in like teenage, young adult relationships to try and shift that identity onto whoever you're with. Yeah. And being able to, that's not healthy, by the way. Just to make sure that we all like when you oh yeah, no. When you try to have your identity and in a romantic relationship, you're gonna be disappointed and you're gonna find a lot of heartache from that. Not filling the hole that you want. Yes. Um, so getting that like what you were saying, like what do I want? What would I do? Who am I apart from these other people? Yeah, absolutely. Helps a lot.

SPEAKER_02 8:46

Yeah, you said you think you were too young to get married, right? What age if you could change things, obviously everything happens for a reason, and if whatever happens didn't happen, you won't be where you are today. But what age do you think you would have gotten married instead of at 20, 21? 25 or 26.

SPEAKER_01 9:02

Twenty-five or six. Really interesting. Not much later, but just just long enough to get through college um and kind of establish yourself um financially, spiritually, mentally, emotionally, like just kind of get your feet under you and then go forward from there.

SPEAKER_04 9:20

Also, your prefrontal cortex doesn't fully develop until you're like 25, 26. And that does actually substantially make a difference in your ability to like navigate conflict and and be able to make logical thought through decisions.

SPEAKER_02 9:37

Did you feel a difference when you turned 25? Really?

SPEAKER_04 9:40

Yeah, I would say so. I definitely feel like when I would get um like when my prefrontal cortex, like my thinking brain would shut off because of stress or anxiety or you know, any sort of scary, fun, whatever, like any sort of strong emotion, and then just experience that emotion, just writing the high or low, whatever that emotion is, um, being able to use your brain and like to think and logic instead of just vibe through. Um, I feel like there was a change in how easy it was to think logically and critically of things.

SPEAKER_02 10:19

Hmm, interesting.

SPEAKER_04 10:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 10:20

How did that affect? Because I know we've talked about mental health before, but like you said when you were anxious or something, did you say you found it easier after to make decisions? Because I feel like when you have mental health issues, whether it's anxiety, depression, anything, like it makes it very hard to make decisions. You said you found it easier. Yep. Interesting. Do you think you know why?

SPEAKER_04 10:39

Because the so like the amygdala, the lizard part of your brain that deals with fight or flight, which is where that like consuming anxiety comes from, is your body saying, Oh my gosh, you're in danger, you're gonna die. I need to protect you. Here's whatever I tell you to do, is what you should do.

SPEAKER_05 10:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 10:55

And the part that can override of your that part of your brain, like the the section of your brain that overrides the lizard brain is your prefrontal cortex, it's your high brain. Okay. And so until that is fully developed, it's not at its full like peak of like strength or like ability to use, like you don't unlock that full potential of logic and critical thinking until about 25.

SPEAKER_02 11:20

Interesting. I did not know that. Yeah, that is so interesting. Um, and kind of piggybacking off like mental health and stuff like that. How has mental health affected you guys in your marriage? Decker, I don't know if do you struggle with mental health at all?

SPEAKER_01 11:33

I uh no. Um not to I think I struggle with stress, but that's probably the severity of why I struggle with it the most.

SPEAKER_00 11:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 11:43

Um, but being married to somebody that does struggle with it has helped me learn a lot about it.

SPEAKER_02 11:49

What have you learned specifically about why Hannah struggles with?

SPEAKER_01 11:54

Um where do I begin?

SPEAKER_02 11:57

Here, here, let me narrow it down. What's been the most impactful thing that you've learned that's helped your marriage?

SPEAKER_01 12:04

To be there when she needs me to just be there. To not fix it, to not give her suggestions, but just to be down in the trench where she's at and love her there.

SPEAKER_02 12:17

I think that is huge. Um, I feel like so many people are just like they see you struggling and they're like, How can I fix it? How can I help you? How can I how can I do this? And I'm like, just just be quiet, just be there for me. Just let me know that I'm there, that that let me know that you're there for me is so big. That's that's honestly huge.

SPEAKER_01 12:38

Yeah, I think it was also something that I didn't know how to do probably until we got back together. I would always try to fix Hannah's problems um in the early parts of our marriage. Whatever she was dealing with, I would just give her, well, you just need to do this. And if you do this, this, and this, and if that don't work, come back to me. Type mentality.

SPEAKER_02 12:59

Yeah, it's because you love her. Like, people don't understand it. Like, yes, it is because you it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing you want to fix and help means you love me, but like this is actually how what's going to help me. Yeah, sometimes being helpful is not is not helpful.

SPEAKER_01 13:13

Yeah, there was a a very pivotal point that I think for me that shifted when we got back together. There was some circumstances happening and realizing that in that moment what she needed was me to just be there in that dark place and just sit with her and know that she was safe to to feel what she needed to feel and be there to have somebody there that just sat there through that help me pivot and how I think on and approach the mental health in our relationship.

SPEAKER_02 13:48

Yeah, absolutely. How has it been for you, Hannah, navigating like how to express what you're feeling and what you need? Because I feel like when you're in the depths of it, it's very hard to express how you're feeling. How have you what have you learned to do to help express?

SPEAKER_04 14:01

Yeah, I think there's a lot of there's like practical actual actions that I've been able to do. Um, but I think there's a big difference in what I would like recommend for like a dating relationship versus like a marriage. Yeah, dating first. Yeah. So I think something that can be really valuable in being able to communicate to someone you're dating with about mental health and communicating what you're needing is having a trusted adult that you communicate with first. So I think having a buffer between you and the person that you you're dating for processing emotions and thoughts is one of the healthiest ways then you can communicate actually what you think and you feel. Um, I think an adult can help you process through because like sometimes you can get so overwhelmed in whatever emotion you're experiencing that it's hard to, like I said, like think through critically and like why am I feeling the way I'm feeling? What can I do about that? What do I need? Because you're just engulfed in that feeling or lack of feeling, honestly. Exactly. And I think a lot of times, at least in our our relationship when we were younger, that ended up being kind of spiral with both of us. When you're consumed in that like intense emotion, it can be easy to um like spiral and ride that emotion together, you know. Like, I can't stand my parents. They did this thing and I'm so angry, like I am unbelievably angry with whatever happened. And then that person you're dating, and then that person you're dating is going, oh my gosh, yeah, they're so horrible, and I'm angry about them too, and that's not fair. Um just feeding into it, that's not all you need. Exactly. Where if you have some sort of trusted adult, whether that's a teacher, a therapist, a counselor, a parent, a grandparent, whatever, um, to be able to go, hey, I'm really, really upset about this, and I'm like, I'm I am consumed with this, I don't know what to do about it, and I need help thinking about this and processing it, being able to go through everything and then go to your your person you're dating and going and saying, you know, hey, I'm really struggling with this aspect. Um, can you support me in this way? Like, can I bend to you and and be able to connect and be able to be vulnerable and share and not like go on the spiral of hating something or spiraling of shame or you know, whatever it is.

SPEAKER_02 16:33

Yeah, I think also it's very helpful in who you choose to date, you know? Like maybe don't choose to date someone who also has the same tendency to just vent and rant, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. So finding someone who'd be like, Yes, I understand you're feeling that way. Have you talked to so and so about this? So just keep that in consideration when like when you're looking for someone to date. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 16:54

I'd say for a marriage, it's definitely daily communication. Like we talk, I would say, if not daily, at least a few times a week, of you know, how was today? Like, even just when he gets home and and decompressing me and like, man, I am just angry. Like everything has been making me angry today, or I am just like a ball of nerves. Like, I am so anxious about every single choice I'm making. Um, and then being able to, once I'm like consistently, he knows, oh, this thing happened today and that made you nervous. And then the next day, oh, this thing happened and it made you sad, or oh, and then the next day, this thing happened and it leads you to more of like this behavior, this emotion. He's learned after so much open communication that like if I'm dealing with a certain thing, he normally has some pretty good, hey, remember when you told me that this helps you? Why don't we try that?

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_04 17:55

Um, so it's just like for a marriage, a lot of consistent and open and vulnerable communication.

SPEAKER_02 18:04

Yeah, and I think also if you're constantly communicating, like you know, like, oh, I don't I don't want to talk about this thing right now because she's feeling this way, you know what I'm saying? Like, because you don't want to make things worse. So that communication is like, oh, she's pretty stressed out. Maybe I'm not gonna ask her about this big topic that we've been, you know what I'm saying? Yeah, yeah. Like maybe I'm maybe I'm not gonna start an argument today.

SPEAKER_05 18:23

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 18:23

So and I'd be curious to ask you um about when does that like consideration for me dealing with something turn into resentment for you not getting heard? Like, where does that line shift from being supportive and healthy and you know, trying to time things so that we both get good positive end result from a conversation and feeling like you don't have a space.

SPEAKER_01 18:55

Yeah. Um that's a really good question. I wanted to piggyback off one thing um that you guys were talking about real fast, um, and then I'm gonna answer your question. Yeah, please. Um when you're talking about dating and marriage and being with somebody that has mental health, there is a very big difference from the person that is supporting that person um in your roles and responsibilities. And I think that's something that when you're dating, you don't realize how important it is to make sure that like I'm married to Hannah now. I I am responsible for making sure that she's taken care of and provided for and she has the resources that she needs. I'm not responsible for her doing those things, but I want to provide those things to her and give her whatever she can. When you're dating, that's not your role or responsibility, and you have to make sure that you separate that. That is until you are married, that is not your job. And your job is to do and listen and respond how the other person has requested you to do that, whether that's just being there to be a sounding board, or you know, if they're in a really dark time, just being there with them, like whatever they say, I need this from you, that's your job. And when you are married, your roles change. Yeah, I think it it's just your role as a support person looks different from dating to being married. Um and it also like you know, when you become married, you two become one person. You got you live life together, and so everything that you do is to help your teammate in life, and and it's a lot different dating somebody because you're still not you're two separate individuals with separate support systems and things like that. But as you get married, you are each other's support system, and you have external people that help you, but at the end of the day, I need to be the person that Hannah can come to with whatever problem she's facing, yeah. And she knows that she has a safe place to come, be vulnerable and transparent, and know that she's gonna be heard, respected, and loved. So, yeah, I think that's that's just a difference that I think I learned along our relationship, and now looking back, I think it's uh a good thought for people when they're getting into relationships and things like that to keep those things in mind. Absolutely. Um, but to answer your question about when does it change from supporting to like feeling resentment? Um it's a very fine line in that moment because there are times that like I do feel you know, there's so much going on and I'm not getting my needs net met. Um or I can't get them met because you can't support me how I need you to, or or things are really hard. And in those moments, it it's not necessarily resent, it's just I come to the realization that I have to in those moments. Moments put myself second and realize that there's a bigger problem at hand, and what I want can be addressed when she's taken care of, or when I can take something off of her plate so she can take care of herself. Making sure that in those moments so that I I push myself second. Um because when I become self-centered about what I want and she's having a hard time, or she can't face reality or life because it's so overwhelming or stressful, then I'm doing nothing but feeding into that further. Yeah. For her. That's so true. It's just a a vicious cycle going forward from there. So yeah, I think it's it's just shifting the mindset to realize that it's it's not about me in those moments.

SPEAKER_04 22:44

I think something unique about the two of us too in our dynamic is the fact that I have a big need of like connecting emotionally and having emotional intimacy and getting to know what's on his mind and what he's struggling with. So sometimes we literally talked about this like last night, I think, or the night before. I think it was last night actually. Um, how he was saying, you know, I don't want to bother you because he's having things that are stressing him out with work and all, you know, life stuff. And there was like a distance between us that I could feel, like I felt like there wasn't connection emotionally, and being able to say, like, hey, what's going on, and him saying, you know, I don't want to overwhelm you because I know that you're also stressed, there's things that you're dealing with. Um, and trying to remind him that I feel like I am being poured into when you tell me what you're struggling with.

SPEAKER_02 23:42

And save exactly what I mean.

SPEAKER_04 23:44

I need that. I need that in our relationship to have that sort of emotional connection. So you trying to protect me from adding to my plate makes me feel less connected and makes it feel more alone, you know.

SPEAKER_02 24:04

Um, I think it's so funny that you say that because I feel the same way. Um, I feel so much closer to people when they're able to be open with me, which is like ironic because I'm not open with other people. Yeah. Um, I've I always tell people I'm an open book, but you have to open the book. Yeah. Like I'm not just gonna like open up myself and not be like, hey, this is what I'm struggling with. But like if you ask me, I'll tell you straight up. I had a friend who knew who knew that and be like, hey, how are you doing? Yeah. And I'd be like, I guess I have to tell you because you tell me. Right. We were such good friends, and I they taught me how to listen really well. Yeah. Because I listened how I would want other people to listen to me, and they did a great job of listening. And I feel like we kind of bounced off of it. That's kind of why we were such good friends, is because we were able to listen to each other and both knew how we we needed to be listened to and talked to as well. Um, I crave that emotional connection as well. I think that's how a lot of people who struggle with mental health is. Yeah. Because, like, also when other people talk to you, but like this is how I feel, it helps you understand how to feel. Yeah. And I feel like when you struggle with depression specifically, like you can struggle with how to feel, yeah, and how to navigate those feelings, but like seeing how other people are feeling is very, very helpful. Agreed. So yeah, I think that's so cool how like we're very, very similar in that way. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:22

I think it's it's hard to for the person that doesn't struggle with that to understand that concept.

SPEAKER_02 25:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:30

Um, at least from my perspective.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:34

That was something I couldn't understand. Yeah, and still, in some instances, still have a hard time understanding like being vulnerable fills her cup. And I want to not more times than not, I want to not overload her plate with all of my problems too.

SPEAKER_05 25:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 25:53

And protect her from that. But in that, I'm withholding a part of myself from her.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

Yeah, it's such it's a hard balance, like how much is too much and how much is too little. Yeah. You know? Yeah.

unknown 26:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 26:05

How do y'all navigate that? Being like, oh, I don't want to give you too much worries, but I also like want to tell you how I'm feeling because you want to fill her up. How do you navigate that? Um DTR.

SPEAKER_01 26:15

Yeah, doing the skills we learned in the um Adventures of Marriage at the time, we're navigating us class now. Okay. And also going through the Hope Weekend. We learned a lot of tools to help us communicate daily, or when we need to utilize a skill to have a conversation that we need to have. We have a structure built in that skill that kind of helps us navigate that conversation and not let it derail and feel like we're escalating too much or you know, dumping too many of our problems on each other.

SPEAKER_02 26:47

Yeah. You said DTR. Do you want to expand on that a little bit?

SPEAKER_04 26:49

Um, so yeah, the DTR is a daily temperature reading. It's one of the main skills that they teach in, I think, all of the live the life um marriage classes and stuff. Oh, cool. Or couples classes, at least the ones that we've been to. Um, and it basically has a structure for you to check in on some pretty important and also like fundamental like areas of life. Yeah. So you walk through and you both get a chance, you go back and forth and you go over your appreciations for each other, and then you go over new information, puzzles, complaints with requests for change, um, apologies, wishes, hopes, and dreams, and prayer requests.

SPEAKER_02 27:36

I really like specifically the um complaints with what did you say? Requests for change. Requests for change. I feel like that's very, very important. The back the back half of that. Like I feel like we do a lot of complaining and not requests for change. And you're like, what am I supposed to do with that information?

SPEAKER_04 27:51

Yep. Yeah, always trying to find a way for the other person to win. Yeah. That's good. Yeah. There's a lot of other skills too that they teach that we use for navigating conflict and stuff, but I think that that's the one that kind of helps us stay on top of that. Where am I at and where can you help me? And also where do I need you to also be vulnerable with me? Like let me in on what you're what's going on with your life.

SPEAKER_02 28:15

Yeah. We talked a little bit about navigating it um with, you know, different types of mental health issues, whether it's anxiety, depression. Um, what do you think the difference is between supporting someone and carrying them? And where do you draw that line, do you think?

SPEAKER_01 28:30

She said you said caring for them. Yes. Okay.

SPEAKER_02 28:33

Caring for them, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 28:35

Um sorry.

SPEAKER_02 28:38

I wasn't very caring.

SPEAKER_01 28:40

I need you to care for me now. I'm sorry. So she was supporting you now, she needs to care for him. Um I think for us, the line looks a little bit different than in my in some other relationships, um, just because of the things that Hannah struggles with and um the things that we have also had in our relationship that kind of help fuel some of that. So it's it's a little bit different, but I think supporting is um me being there for her when she needs me to just listen. Um or she needs just like a sounding board to vent. Um, she's really angry, she's struggling, she's sad, she just needs to pour out what's in her and know that somebody's just listening. Um but that caring aspect I think comes into play when she comes to me and she goes, Hey, on a scale of one to ten, this is how depressed I'm feeling today's an eight or a nine. Um that goes a little more intentional um with the things I do, um how I help her, the things I do to help take care of our daughter, uh, or the things I can do to help maybe have our daughter go to her parents' house so I can pour my full focus into her and make sure that she's safe, she's cared for, um, and the things that she does struggle with that I know at her core are some of the biggest struggles, and I don't know if you want to expound on what those are or things like that. Um but those things I have a safety system put in place to to check those things off, and I think that that for us that's been really beneficial to help know when I need to pivot from support to cares when it becomes a okay, this is a higher escalated. Do we have a safety system put in place for that?

SPEAKER_04 30:33

I also think that you kind of mentioned it earlier. There's a that that support, everything that you just described, is a friend, a someone you're dating, caring is your spouse, your parents, or whoever's taking care of you, a therapist, whatever. Um yeah, I I think all of the things you described for caring is definitely the responsibility or the opportunity of a spouse to provide. Um you it I don't know if providing a safety plan for a fellow teenager who's your girlfriend or boyfriend is a healthy or secure choice.

SPEAKER_02 31:20

Yeah. Who do you think would be a good person for that?

SPEAKER_04 31:23

Um, like I said, like parent, trusted adult, therapist, counselor, teacher, like the people who have those resources. Like who, I mean, I'm sure there are teenagers who could probably say, Oh, there's this number, there's this person, there's this thing that you can do. But it's kind of like what I said earlier, it's really, really easy to just spiral together. Like, oh my gosh, yeah, that is horrible. That sounds so sad. Like, let's be sad together. Or wow, that's horrible, like, let's be angry together. That sucks. What are you gonna do about it? Let's go get like, you know, whatever. Um, whereas a an adult's role in a conversation like I'm not doing okay, when you really do need somebody to act to help you stay safe, they're gonna have the resources for that. And if they don't know what those resources look like, they're not going to spiral with you, they're gonna try and stabilize you and get you to those resources. Yeah, yeah. Does that make sense? No, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

And I think it's kind of like what you said a lot of teenagers don't know that fine line. Yeah. Um when somebody comes to you and says I'm not okay, that can mean a lot of different things.

SPEAKER_02 32:36

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 32:38

Yeah, and as an adult, you can decipher when you need to take action versus when somebody needs to be heard. Um, and teenagers, they're just not their brain is still developing, so they're still learning those critical thinking skills. Um I mean, I was I still am learning those critical thinking skills, so it's not just to teenagers, but it is something that as you get older you're able to decipher more um critical versus you know, logical supportive and logical.

SPEAKER_02 33:12

Yeah, logical versus feelings. Yeah, absolutely. Um, I think for me, thinking about getting into a relationship, getting married one day, like that seems so overwhelming with struggle with mental health. I've struggled with mental health since I was nine years old. Like, it's something I've I've always known, I've always struggled with.

SPEAKER_03 33:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 33:30

How do you know that you're ready for a relationship for marriage? Obviously, I'm 17, I'm not ready for marriage right now, but like, how do I know that I will be ready one day? What are some things I should be looking for? Be like, oh, maybe I am ready for a relationship or to go on a date. Um, can I ask you questions back?

SPEAKER_04 33:46

Absolutely. Um, what do you feel disqualifies you from that?

SPEAKER_02 33:53

I don't think it's disqualifying. Um necessarily. I think it's more of an insecurity. Honestly. Um thinking about like, oh, I don't want to put that on another person, what I'm struggling with, or um, oh, I don't know if they want to be put in that position, or like I don't want to scare somebody away with that. Um honestly, it probably is insecurity. Yeah, like how I was saying it out loud, I'm like, wow, I'm so insecure. No, like not actually, but like thinking about it and I'm like, it really is like I don't want to have to put that on another person, or um I want to be stable enough to be a um a benefit, yeah, not a benefit, a um a what's the word? Um like like I I feel like I won't be able to be a contributor in a relationship. I th I think where I am right now, I would like this was like a year, two years ago, Rosalind, I feel like would be different. Yeah. Um, but now like where do you think that shift is, do you think?

SPEAKER_04 34:51

Yeah. I think at the end of the day, it's about how you view yourself and where your identity is. Like, you're never gonna be ready for a relationship or be able to navigate mental health in a relationship in a healthy way if your identity is in how that person responds. Like if how you feel about things is going to change based off how they respond or how valuable you feel like you are in a relationship is based off of how they view you, that that's not gonna be something that's gonna end out consistently very healthy. Like being able to recognize that even if you're having a bad day, that if that person that you're with has a reaction of like, why can't you XYZ? Or if that person's going to, you know, hey, we need to do this, you need to get over it, like it's time to go.

SPEAKER_02 35:44

Oh, so I think it's more on the other person almost. I think like not even the other person, but like what the other how the other person would react.

SPEAKER_04 35:52

So it's less of like it's when it's more of who. It's more about how you react to their reaction. Okay. Because like, for example, we were dating and I don't like being around people because I'm very anxious. And um I have a hard time. I feel like I don't like people. Yeah, he's very outgoing, like very, very much outgoing, needs lots of friends, loves going to be around lots of people. Like Friday night football or whatever is like let's go to somebody's house and bring some food. And I can't wait to hang out and like do um um the beanbag tossing game. Cornhole in the backyard. And I'm like, can we just like make some popcorn and sit and watch it together while I like knit or something at home?

SPEAKER_02 36:33

Like, I don't I'm very social. Yeah, like I'm very like, I want to be with people all the time, but I have a social battery. Yeah. So like I guess that technically means I'm introverted, but like I do sometimes feel feel fueled by yeah, it just depends on where I'm at. Like normally I'm like people all the time. Yeah, constantly, consistently as I work. I say that as I work from home, right?

SPEAKER_04 36:51

Right. Um, yeah. But the we were gonna go to a um Christmas party for the worship team that we were both on, and I didn't want to go. As soon as they invited us, I didn't want to go. Like I did not want to go to that. Um, I knew that that was gonna be incredibly overwhelming to me. I had only been at this new church for like maybe two months. I didn't really know these people, like maybe closer to three months, but regardless, I didn't feel super comfortable. They were not, there was nobody who was my age except for him, and he grew up with these people. Like these are the people who he went to in youth group, like these adults that he, you know, learned how to play guitar and were and do worship team with. Like, um, so I was really, really uncomfortable with it, and I didn't want to go, but he really, really wanted to go. And he, I I I don't I don't mean to like tell on you or you can spill Munder.

SPEAKER_01 37:50

It's okay.

SPEAKER_04 37:51

He was very frustrated with me not being able to just like okay, let's go. Um and so there was a lot of like we were fighting over it and arguing over it, and and not the even the point of going, the fact that like I was so overwhelmed and like literally having a panic attack in the car on the way. And oh, you were gonna go. I was in the car on the way, and I was like, literally, I can't do this. Like, I am so incredibly did you drag her there? Yes, literally, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 38:21

We've learned a lot since then.

SPEAKER_04 38:22

Yeah, literally having a panic attack on the way, like minutes from the house, and I'm like freaking out, completely dysregulated, and he's frustrated. Again, I'm not trying to be mean, you like you are fantastic and wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 38:38

You don't have to lie. I'm human too.

SPEAKER_04 38:40

Okay, there you go, you're human too. Um, but the reason that I'm sharing this isn't just that, like, oh, he had a negative reaction to my anxiety and my lack of wanting to be around people. Because we could navigate that in a healthy way. Like, we can talk, like, okay, well, what does that look like? Like, how long I like I want to go, and I know that you want me to be able to have that opportunity. How do we navigate that? How long are we gonna be? Do you want me to walk around with you? Um, like that, those are things that I can communicate now. Like, hey, we can go do this thing that I know I'm gonna be uncomfortable in, but will you please stand with me? Like, don't leave me.

SPEAKER_02 39:15

Like, yeah, don't leave me just give myself.

SPEAKER_04 39:17

Give me reassurance. If you see that I'm feeling anxious, like just put your hand on my back, let me know that you're there. Like, I can communicate those things now, but when I when we were in that moment and I'm so dysregulated and I'm so freaking out, and I'm like, okay, I've just got to figure this out. The part that I feel like was really, really negative, not just the reaction that he had, but he's also like 19. He's an 18-year-old guy who wants to go play guitar around a fire for Christmas around with all of his friends. Yeah, something like a blast. That's so much. But I'm saying, like, I got to do it. It was really fun for me. Like, I understand the like concept that that was something that he really wanted to do, and he was getting frustrated and disappointed that I was going to impact his ability to do that. Like, we're both we're both young and trying to navigate this in a way that wasn't healthy. But I put my value in that response. I said, Why can't I just do this? Like, I'm so stupid, I'm so incapable. Like, why am I acting like a child who can't be uncomfortable for a few minutes? Like, why am I freaking out about this? I'm I'm this awful, and I just I'm spiraling off of his negative reaction to my struggle. That's what I kind of feel like is the is this swapping point is are you it's not even about confidence in the sense of like, oh, I think I'm great, but the security in yourself that like I know who I am at my core and I know where my value lies. And it doesn't matter if I'm having a bad day that doesn't change how important I am, or how strong I am, or how you know intelligent I am, or how I feel about myself, how I view myself, how I fit in this world. Um it all goes back to where your identity is. Yes. And like how secure are you in yourself and separated are you from your struggle? Like I'm not the I'm not anxiety. I have anxiety, like I'm struggling with anxiety. I'm not depression, I am struggling with depression. That was huge for me when I was younger.

SPEAKER_02 41:21

Like my mom, because I've I had a hard experience when I was nine, and it caused me to have very, very serious anxiety from nine until I still have it. Yeah. Um, it's not as serious, well, it's morphed into other issues, but it's not as serious as it was about the thing that it was when I was nine years old. Yeah. But she would ask me when I was younger, she'd be like, Who are you? I'd be like, I'm anxious. Like that literally, it was my identity because I was so consumed by it. Yes. Like this little nine-year-old was so consumed by anxiety that that was her identity. Yeah. And like I don't even like recognize that person anymore. Yeah. Like being switching that shift from like, I'm anxious to I'm Rosalind. I'm 17 years old, I'm a Christian. Yeah. And that is where my identity is. Yes. Not in my mental health struggles, not in my depression, not in my anxiety, not in my ADHD, not any of these things. Like, that's not something that defines me. I feel like that's so huge. And like not putting that in your relationship, too, because that is not healthy because you're also putting that expectation on that other person, which is not it's not healthy. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 42:26

Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, it's it's kind of that like going from I'm so overwhelmed and anxious about this, and I'm struggling with this aspect of having to socialize and him being 19, going, but I really want this, and I feel like you're taking it away from me, and I don't understand why you're feeling the way you're feeling. And instead of saying all of those things, I'm going, We're going. Like, I don't know, I don't understand why you can't, like, you just need to calm down. Like, just calm down, you'll be fine. It'll be fun once you get here, like trying to walk you out of like, yeah, don't worry about it, you're overreacting when what you really mean is I'm feeling disappointed, I really want this. How can we do this together?

SPEAKER_02 43:03

Yeah, how can we compromise? Exactly. We don't have to go for the whole time, or I can stand next to you. Yeah, yeah, that's huge.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Oh, and that's a lot of what we do now. Um we learned from trial and error and experiences. Yeah, you know, if there's something that I really want to do or something that she really wants to do, and the other person doesn't want to do that for whatever reason, um, or in like her case, like if she's feeling really overwhelmed or anxious, um, we have some things that we do now. Like, I'll stay with her. We'll go together and we'll do something and I'll hold her hand or I'll sit with her, or if I'm gonna go do something, you know, separate from her, I'll I'm only gonna be gone for a few minutes, or like or you just go. Or I just go by myself.

SPEAKER_02 43:47

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:48

Um But it it's just about like communicating.

SPEAKER_02 43:52

Really quick, what's your love language, Anna?

SPEAKER_04 43:55

Um what are they, access service? Words of affirmation. What are all the other ones?

SPEAKER_02 44:04

Physical touch. Words of affirmation. Acts of service. Acts of service. Quality time.

SPEAKER_04 44:12

Quality time. Quality time. That's your top one? Yeah, I don't care. He can say you're so wonderful and beautiful and amazing. And I'm like, okay. Like I do not say I do not care about that. That is, that is not, that does not impact me in any way. Or like him doing the dishes, like, oh thanks. That was nice. Like I do appreciate gifts is the other one that I was thinking about. I don't care about gifts at all.

SPEAKER_02 44:32

Okay. That's so funny. Because you keep you were talking about like him putting his hand on your back. Are y'all holding hands? Is that another way you're just like, oh, you're here? It's less of a love language. It's more of like a help with your anxiety. That's so interesting. Because I'm the same way. That's so funny. You keep saying that, and I'm like, we are the same person. Because I was in a relationship, and if you would just like hold my hand, I was like, oh my gosh, I'm okay. Yeah. Like, I know that you're here, but I'm not a physical death person. Yeah, absolutely. I'm a black cat. I'm like, do not touch me, do not come near me, do not hug me. Like, even my family, they know not to come near me. Like, like the other day, me and my family are watching a movie, and my whole family was all over here cuddled up on the couch. Like my mom, my dad, my brother, my sister, and the dog was over there. And I'm here in the corner all by myself, and they're just like having a great time, and I'm having a great time. And they're like, You don't want to come with us? And I'm like, nope, nope, I'm having fun. Yeah. But like when I was struggling and I was in a relationship, like just them holding my hands or like me being able to put my head on their shoulder, like made the made the world of a difference. And I never thought it was like a oh, this is my love language, because I'm like, don't touch me. Yes. Like, but like in a relationship, it's so different. Yeah. It's so different. So I think just navigating that is huge, like realizing what actually helps you when you're feeling anxious and when you're doing those things. But yeah, again, I don't like gifts. I don't, I'm like, people give me a gift and I'm like, how do I react to this? Yes, exactly. Like, thank you. Thanks. Thanks for thinking of me. Like, I'm also a bad gift giver. I want to be a good gift giver. I'm just not. Yeah. It's like birthdays come around and I'm like, what's your favorite color again? Like everything goes out of my mind. But like randomly, I'd be like, oh my gosh, this is perfect. Right, yeah. I'm an awful gift giver. Or acts of service. I'm like, I feel bad you had to do that for me. Like, I feel bad. Yeah, like you've got to be. But quality time I'm the same way. I'm like, it's coming out with me. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm the same way. That's so funny. Yeah. Yeah, that's really cool. How like it helps with little things like that. But yeah. Well, thank you guys for coming on and talking about these things. You guys have any questions for me that you think could be helpful for other people to know? Hmm.

SPEAKER_04 46:37

I think there was one. What do you think is probably realistically a red flag that younger people in general tend to write off as unimportant or normal?

SPEAKER_02 46:52

I think it goes back to identity and insecurity. Yeah. Because when people are like, oh, I have to be with this person all the time, they are my rock. If our relationship is broken, I'm broken. So putting your identity in that relationship, I think, is so normalized right now. Yeah. Like I see people on social media and they're like, they are just my rock. I don't know who I'd be without them. I'd be so lost. I can't live my life without you. And they just write off as love. Yeah. I feel like a lot of that like identity is very much written off as like, oh, they they just love me. I just love them so much. And it's just it, it's we we just love each other. Yeah. I feel like the word love is so, so important to know the definition of. Yeah. And to know what that actually looks like in a relationship because people think like um infatuation versus love, I feel like it's very, very important to know. Yeah. Um I feel like that's the biggest red flag that I see is just being like obsessed with each other and like if the other person's struggling or if like the relationship's broken, like the world's over. Yeah. And it's ending. Um, because it's normalized, because everyone thinks it's just love. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 47:55

So how do you think you can like work like how do you think you can support a friend who is just absolutely infatuated with someone to the point of like obsession or they're in a relationship and they're uncomfortable or they're recognizing the red flag in the person they're with, and that other person is like just consumed. How do you think you can support a friend that's kind of in a relationship like that?

SPEAKER_02 48:26

Yeah, I feel like a big thing, especially if they're a Christian, um, because I'm a Christian, and I feel like the biggest thing is showing them that their identity is not in that relationship. Yeah. And I feel like it also happens with single people being like, oh, I just want a relationship and I'm not in a relationship, I'm not gonna be okay. Like I was definitely in that place for a long time. Yeah. Um, I say that as I'm only 17, but I I was there. Yeah. Um, and I was like, oh, I'm not in a relationship. Like when that relationship I was talking about earlier ended it, I had everything in on it. Like I, all of my identity was in this person because I was like, if if they're not like I'm not okay, like because that's when I was really, really struggling with mental health at that point. Um, and when that relationship was over, I was broken. Yeah, I I didn't know who I was.

SPEAKER_03 49:10

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:11

Um, so I think just reassuring that person of like, you aren't so and so and so and so. Yeah. You are you, yeah. You're not the other person, you are um, you're separate. Yeah. Yes, you may be dating, you may be together, but you're not one person yet, you're not married. And even when you're married, your identity isn't in the other person. It's in the Lord, especially if you're a Christian, it should be in the Lord. So reminding them, like, this isn't your all or nothing. Yeah. Like you have Jesus, and that was where I honestly my relationship with the Lord grew, is realizing that, like, gosh, this person isn't forever. Yeah. Like realizing that nothing on this earth is guaranteed, nothing is forever except for the Lord. So reminding them that, like, this may fail one day. Yeah. And like, yes, that may suck, but knowing that you have something else who's way more important, who will last in your life, um, and it's being there for them, honestly. Yeah. Like, it's a lot of it is because of an insecurity. So trying to figure out what that insecurity is so that you can help that person, yeah. But also like learning what they do need, like, if do if if they need someone to just bounce back off of, just to vent or to rant to. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 50:16

So basically going alongside them and you know, just being a good friend regardless, and also trying to remind them where their identity lies.

SPEAKER_02 50:26

Absolutely. Yeah, I think that's what I would do. Nice. Yeah, well, thank you guys for coming on. Hope you had a good time. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 50:34

Could I say one more thing? Oh, absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 50:35

Yeah, please, please do.

SPEAKER_01 50:37

I think one thing I would encourage thank you for supporting me.

SPEAKER_05 50:41

What support do you carry?

SPEAKER_01 50:44

Um one thing I would want to impart on people that are starting to want to date or thinking of about dating and and all the different aspects of dating, because there's so many different things, but specifically talking about mental health, being with somebody that does struggle with mental health, there's a large learning curve that you're gonna have to learn one way or the other. Um hopefully you love the person with who they are, you don't try and fix them. Um and you support them how they need to be supported. But at the end of the day, you as the support person need to learn how to support.

SPEAKER_02 51:24

I think that was good. Supporting and not fixing, that was really, really good.

SPEAKER_01 51:28

You can't be who they need you to be unless you let yourself learn how to be that person. For me, that was a really hard thing. And and growing up in a house that mental health wasn't really talked about. Um, it wasn't something that my family's ever dealt with, so nobody in my household really talked about how to deal with mental health. Um, so coming into this relationship, it was a really big learning curve for me. And who I was pre-marriage and who I was the first year and a half or so of our marriage versus who I am today post-separation and reconnection are two very different people. Yeah. Um, and a lot of that came with humility and learning that I didn't have all the answers. I wasn't qualified to answer some of the questions that were there. A big thing that I learned was learning to sit in those moments and learn and be patient and love Hannah where she was, not try to fix her or tell her what she needed to do.

SPEAKER_05 52:37

Yeah, that's good.

SPEAKER_01 52:38

So I think just the big thing that I would encourage people to do as you start to date is really understand what it means to some support somebody and be willing to do what that person says to meet their needs. Um, one thing that we talk about in marriage class a lot is love is experienced when needs are met. And if you can't meet your partner's needs, then you you can't love them and support them how they need to be. And and you're gonna have issues.

SPEAKER_02 53:09

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 53:10

Um that's great. Not overcomable issues, but it is it's gonna be hard. So that would be what I would say going forward is just learn how to love and meet needs and learn what supporting needs. Um, especially when somebody struggles with mental health.

SPEAKER_02 53:25

Yeah, that's awesome. Yeah, yeah, thank you so much for that. That that was great. Yeah, pretty much sums up the whole thing. That was amazing. Yeah, thank you guys for coming on. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm glad you had a great time.